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	<title>Comments on: Magick Doesn&#8217;t Work</title>
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	<link>http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2010/02/magick-doesnt-work/</link>
	<description>Cultivating a community through the exploration of magical living and spiritual evolution.</description>
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		<title>By: Donald Michael Kraig</title>
		<link>http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2010/02/magick-doesnt-work/comment-page-1/#comment-21446</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Michael Kraig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Sep 2010 03:14:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/?p=1769#comment-21446</guid>
		<description>Josiah, I can&#039;t disagree with your personal experience. However, I can say that your post exhibits a logical fallacy: you assume that because something is true for you it must be true for all. In all my writings I stress that I&#039;m describing what has worked for me and for others, but you have to determine if it works for you. Just because you or I say something does not mean it is true for everyone. As Dion Fortune wrote, there is no room for authority in occultism.

It&#039;s interesting that you describe humans as having the &quot;size of a microbe.&quot; Little microbes are capable of destroying entire civilizations. The Little microbe that caused the flu after WWI, the &quot;war to end all wars,&quot; killed more people than the total number of people killed by that war.

As an martial artist will tell you, size has nothing to do with who wins a fight. It is only the observation of the materialist who thinks that size is the only determining factor. It is the materialist who, because he doesn&#039;t understand the greater reality of the spiritual universe, declares that magick doesn&#039;t work. 

Indeed, for him, trying to work magick is a fool&#039;s errand. He wastes his time trying to shift the laws of the universe. The magician, on the other hand, actually learns the laws of the universe and works with them. To those who refuse to see, the easiest thing to do is deny the magician&#039;s success.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josiah, I can&#8217;t disagree with your personal experience. However, I can say that your post exhibits a logical fallacy: you assume that because something is true for you it must be true for all. In all my writings I stress that I&#8217;m describing what has worked for me and for others, but you have to determine if it works for you. Just because you or I say something does not mean it is true for everyone. As Dion Fortune wrote, there is no room for authority in occultism.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting that you describe humans as having the &#8220;size of a microbe.&#8221; Little microbes are capable of destroying entire civilizations. The Little microbe that caused the flu after WWI, the &#8220;war to end all wars,&#8221; killed more people than the total number of people killed by that war.</p>
<p>As an martial artist will tell you, size has nothing to do with who wins a fight. It is only the observation of the materialist who thinks that size is the only determining factor. It is the materialist who, because he doesn&#8217;t understand the greater reality of the spiritual universe, declares that magick doesn&#8217;t work. </p>
<p>Indeed, for him, trying to work magick is a fool&#8217;s errand. He wastes his time trying to shift the laws of the universe. The magician, on the other hand, actually learns the laws of the universe and works with them. To those who refuse to see, the easiest thing to do is deny the magician&#8217;s success.</p>
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		<title>By: Josiah Sherebia</title>
		<link>http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2010/02/magick-doesnt-work/comment-page-1/#comment-21443</link>
		<dc:creator>Josiah Sherebia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 17:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/?p=1769#comment-21443</guid>
		<description>My own metaphysical studies and experiments have yielded the following: No human being can manipulate hard reality. No matter what type of magick it is, it does not work.  None of us is really driving.  Some of us may have some small insiginificant succession, but none of us is driving.  Consider you place and size in the Universe.  You have as much size as a microbe.  Now see yourself shifting the laws of the Universe...it&#039;s a fools errand</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My own metaphysical studies and experiments have yielded the following: No human being can manipulate hard reality. No matter what type of magick it is, it does not work.  None of us is really driving.  Some of us may have some small insiginificant succession, but none of us is driving.  Consider you place and size in the Universe.  You have as much size as a microbe.  Now see yourself shifting the laws of the Universe&#8230;it&#8217;s a fools errand</p>
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		<title>By: Christi Plemons</title>
		<link>http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2010/02/magick-doesnt-work/comment-page-1/#comment-7831</link>
		<dc:creator>Christi Plemons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:03:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/?p=1769#comment-7831</guid>
		<description>Thank you so much. I will paste your answers into his email. I will also go and check out the site you suggested and get the book your recommended for him. 

Once again... I appreciate you taking your time to answer his questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you so much. I will paste your answers into his email. I will also go and check out the site you suggested and get the book your recommended for him. </p>
<p>Once again&#8230; I appreciate you taking your time to answer his questions.</p>
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		<title>By: Donald Michael Kraig</title>
		<link>http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2010/02/magick-doesnt-work/comment-page-1/#comment-7715</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Michael Kraig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:42:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/?p=1769#comment-7715</guid>
		<description>Hi, Christi!

You can always contact me via my email: DonK@llewellyn.com

I wouldn&#039;t want to misrepresent the Ciceros in a reply, so I would suggest contacting them directly through their website:
http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org

Concerning the paths on the Tree of Life, one of the most respected books on the subject is Gareth Knight&#039;s &quot;A Practical Guide to Qabalistic Symbolism.&quot; That was originally a two-volume set, and the material in question is in the second volume. I believe it is now available in one united volume.

I have worked with both low and high magick, also known as natural magick and ceremonial magick. In my experience both are completely effective...but they are not equally effective for all people. If someone is more attracted to and comfortable with one style over another, he or she is likely to have more success with that style.

I hope this answers your questions, and thanks for your kind comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Christi!</p>
<p>You can always contact me via my email: <a href="mailto:DonK@llewellyn.com">DonK@llewellyn.com</a></p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t want to misrepresent the Ciceros in a reply, so I would suggest contacting them directly through their website:<br />
<a href="http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org</a></p>
<p>Concerning the paths on the Tree of Life, one of the most respected books on the subject is Gareth Knight&#8217;s &#8220;A Practical Guide to Qabalistic Symbolism.&#8221; That was originally a two-volume set, and the material in question is in the second volume. I believe it is now available in one united volume.</p>
<p>I have worked with both low and high magick, also known as natural magick and ceremonial magick. In my experience both are completely effective&#8230;but they are not equally effective for all people. If someone is more attracted to and comfortable with one style over another, he or she is likely to have more success with that style.</p>
<p>I hope this answers your questions, and thanks for your kind comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Christi Plemons</title>
		<link>http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2010/02/magick-doesnt-work/comment-page-1/#comment-7690</link>
		<dc:creator>Christi Plemons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/?p=1769#comment-7690</guid>
		<description>Thank you... That does help.  I do the Magick Jornal just like that.  I used your Modern Magick book to begin my new Journey. So I do that pattern of record keeping. That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for your response. 

I do have a few questions for you that my brother who is incarcerated wanted to know and I didnt know where I could ask it at.  I hope this is the appropriate place.  If not... please let me know because we use your books together via email. Here is what he sent me....

concerning the self initiation into the golden dawn by Cicero

why use the goddess Themis for the ritual of initiation? isnt themis a greek goddess when the rest of the rituals are cenetered on egyption pantheon/ is it good to mix? confusing to me

Paths on the tree of life, not really understanding them could he recommend a good book to help me further understand. one not written in code?

do you believe that what we call lower magick is just as effective as higher magick? wicca vs ceremonial

He would be just thrilled if I was to send him your answers to these questions. 

Thank you for all you do for the Pagan community.  I plan on getting your Sex Magick book soon.  I love Modern Magick.  It is the best way to grasp information before moving into the Golden Dawn by Regardie. I also loved your interview on personal life media on sex magick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you&#8230; That does help.  I do the Magick Jornal just like that.  I used your Modern Magick book to begin my new Journey. So I do that pattern of record keeping. That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for your response. </p>
<p>I do have a few questions for you that my brother who is incarcerated wanted to know and I didnt know where I could ask it at.  I hope this is the appropriate place.  If not&#8230; please let me know because we use your books together via email. Here is what he sent me&#8230;.</p>
<p>concerning the self initiation into the golden dawn by Cicero</p>
<p>why use the goddess Themis for the ritual of initiation? isnt themis a greek goddess when the rest of the rituals are cenetered on egyption pantheon/ is it good to mix? confusing to me</p>
<p>Paths on the tree of life, not really understanding them could he recommend a good book to help me further understand. one not written in code?</p>
<p>do you believe that what we call lower magick is just as effective as higher magick? wicca vs ceremonial</p>
<p>He would be just thrilled if I was to send him your answers to these questions. </p>
<p>Thank you for all you do for the Pagan community.  I plan on getting your Sex Magick book soon.  I love Modern Magick.  It is the best way to grasp information before moving into the Golden Dawn by Regardie. I also loved your interview on personal life media on sex magick.</p>
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		<title>By: Donald Michael Kraig</title>
		<link>http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2010/02/magick-doesnt-work/comment-page-1/#comment-7602</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Michael Kraig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 17:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/?p=1769#comment-7602</guid>
		<description>Hi, Christi. Thank you for your comment.

I would respond to your question with a two-part answer.

First, you&#039;ll know something is effective when it works.
Second, break down each of your magickal practices into its component parts. Include such things a the weather, the phase of the moon, whether you&#039;re tired or energetic, you emotional state, and each aspect of the ritual(s) you&#039;re performing. Record this in your magickal record or diary.

Then, change one of those aspects. Try the ritual with just one of those aspects changed several times. If it&#039;s effective, keep it. If not, go back to the original pattern and try something else. This is like a scientist doing investigative research.

You can always return to the basic starting practices. They are often reported, practiced, and written about as they have worked for many people.

I hope this helps!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Christi. Thank you for your comment.</p>
<p>I would respond to your question with a two-part answer.</p>
<p>First, you&#8217;ll know something is effective when it works.<br />
Second, break down each of your magickal practices into its component parts. Include such things a the weather, the phase of the moon, whether you&#8217;re tired or energetic, you emotional state, and each aspect of the ritual(s) you&#8217;re performing. Record this in your magickal record or diary.</p>
<p>Then, change one of those aspects. Try the ritual with just one of those aspects changed several times. If it&#8217;s effective, keep it. If not, go back to the original pattern and try something else. This is like a scientist doing investigative research.</p>
<p>You can always return to the basic starting practices. They are often reported, practiced, and written about as they have worked for many people.</p>
<p>I hope this helps!</p>
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		<title>By: Christi Plemons</title>
		<link>http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2010/02/magick-doesnt-work/comment-page-1/#comment-7585</link>
		<dc:creator>Christi Plemons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 03:43:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/?p=1769#comment-7585</guid>
		<description>So if there is no set way... then how will we know we are doing all the rituals... studies... motions...vibrations... etc right?  I am refering to your statements regarding that if magick is not working to change an aspect until you find what works. I know that I have been practicing magick for 9 years and felt stagnant. So, my brother suggested moving to a more intermediate form of magickal work and study your book Modern Magick... and then The Golden Dawn.  

We have been working on foundation and understanding.  One of the things both you and Regardie say is… not to move forward until you have memorized and fully understand the concept of the current instruction (lesson).  How will I know what aspect to modify or even when an aspect is the problem and not my inexperience in the ritual work?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So if there is no set way&#8230; then how will we know we are doing all the rituals&#8230; studies&#8230; motions&#8230;vibrations&#8230; etc right?  I am refering to your statements regarding that if magick is not working to change an aspect until you find what works. I know that I have been practicing magick for 9 years and felt stagnant. So, my brother suggested moving to a more intermediate form of magickal work and study your book Modern Magick&#8230; and then The Golden Dawn.  </p>
<p>We have been working on foundation and understanding.  One of the things both you and Regardie say is… not to move forward until you have memorized and fully understand the concept of the current instruction (lesson).  How will I know what aspect to modify or even when an aspect is the problem and not my inexperience in the ritual work?</p>
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		<title>By: Donald Michael Kraig</title>
		<link>http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2010/02/magick-doesnt-work/comment-page-1/#comment-7465</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Michael Kraig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/?p=1769#comment-7465</guid>
		<description>Hi, KJD.

Thank you for your comments. However, I must respectfully disagree.

Magick existed long before there was any religion—if you define &quot;religion&quot; as an organized system of faith and worship. If you define &quot;religion&quot; in a different way, then by your definition you might be correct.

I would be more inclined to say that magick has been a part of every magickal system much as the wheels are part of every automobile. The wheels aren&#039;t the automobile by themselves, but the car doesn&#039;t work well without them.

All science is only proven until something comes along and disproves it. Atoms were thought to be the smallest things until that was disproven by the discovery of subatomic particles. Subatomic particles were thought to be the smallest things until the discovery of quarks.

The problem with &quot;proving&quot; magick or any scientific endeavor is that no matter how we try to get rid of the variables, there may still be one that we don&#039;t fully appreciate or understand: our minds. Our minds determine what the variables are, how the testing should be done, etc. But we don&#039;t think of our mind as a variable because everything we think and do is filtered through our minds.

So really, all science and magick allow us to do is better understand the reality that is interpreted by our minds. For most people Newtonian laws work just as well or better than quantum mechanics. And I believe that is really the key: does it work? For many thousands of people today and throughout history, magick absolutely does work.

So is it a &quot;proven&quot; science? I believe it is, at least as much as any science can be.

So we may disagree, and that&#039;s okay. I believe we can disagree without being disagreeable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, KJD.</p>
<p>Thank you for your comments. However, I must respectfully disagree.</p>
<p>Magick existed long before there was any religion—if you define &#8220;religion&#8221; as an organized system of faith and worship. If you define &#8220;religion&#8221; in a different way, then by your definition you might be correct.</p>
<p>I would be more inclined to say that magick has been a part of every magickal system much as the wheels are part of every automobile. The wheels aren&#8217;t the automobile by themselves, but the car doesn&#8217;t work well without them.</p>
<p>All science is only proven until something comes along and disproves it. Atoms were thought to be the smallest things until that was disproven by the discovery of subatomic particles. Subatomic particles were thought to be the smallest things until the discovery of quarks.</p>
<p>The problem with &#8220;proving&#8221; magick or any scientific endeavor is that no matter how we try to get rid of the variables, there may still be one that we don&#8217;t fully appreciate or understand: our minds. Our minds determine what the variables are, how the testing should be done, etc. But we don&#8217;t think of our mind as a variable because everything we think and do is filtered through our minds.</p>
<p>So really, all science and magick allow us to do is better understand the reality that is interpreted by our minds. For most people Newtonian laws work just as well or better than quantum mechanics. And I believe that is really the key: does it work? For many thousands of people today and throughout history, magick absolutely does work.</p>
<p>So is it a &#8220;proven&#8221; science? I believe it is, at least as much as any science can be.</p>
<p>So we may disagree, and that&#8217;s okay. I believe we can disagree without being disagreeable.</p>
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		<title>By: KJd</title>
		<link>http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2010/02/magick-doesnt-work/comment-page-1/#comment-7463</link>
		<dc:creator>KJd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:36:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/?p=1769#comment-7463</guid>
		<description>To the Post Person of this Blog.  You cannot compare Magic or Magick to Science unless you speak of an Alcamist Student, then this would apply,  Magic / Magick, is an earthbound Religion dating back to the earliest Religions, and has been proven to work, you are being more like s psychologist in stating X to Y&#039;s, The proven point is that Magic/Magick is not yet a truly proven science, but then again we who follow the path our not out to prove anything, It is a way of our lives and we our not scientific Lab Rats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To the Post Person of this Blog.  You cannot compare Magic or Magick to Science unless you speak of an Alcamist Student, then this would apply,  Magic / Magick, is an earthbound Religion dating back to the earliest Religions, and has been proven to work, you are being more like s psychologist in stating X to Y&#8217;s, The proven point is that Magic/Magick is not yet a truly proven science, but then again we who follow the path our not out to prove anything, It is a way of our lives and we our not scientific Lab Rats.</p>
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		<title>By: Jade Wolf-Dragon</title>
		<link>http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2010/02/magick-doesnt-work/comment-page-1/#comment-7343</link>
		<dc:creator>Jade Wolf-Dragon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 01:29:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/?p=1769#comment-7343</guid>
		<description>Awesome post!  The practioner should take a look back and understand that some Magick doesn&#039;t work because better things are in store later down the road.  
-JWD</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome post!  The practioner should take a look back and understand that some Magick doesn&#8217;t work because better things are in store later down the road.<br />
-JWD</p>
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